Why do MMORPGs suck?

'Yack it up.'
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Merlynn
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Merlynn » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:28 am

So I'm running a CoH free trial I got off my copy of Guild Wars cause my friend wanted to try it out. And I can't resist trying one last time to try to get through the thick headed weasels at the CoH forums. Basically,I suggested that instead of digging out that old nugget of "the forums are only a small portion of the player population" whenever enough people get on there to point out they hate the nerfs and changes,they instead simply put in an in-game poll.

Basically,it works like this. They make a poll about a change they've made. For example,ED. The poll question pops up before the player is allowed to go to server selection and they can't do anything else until they vote on the poll. And there's no "maybe" option. You're either for a change or against it. So,before you get to server selection,the question pops up "Do you like ED?" and it has a yes,a no,and a "what is it?" link. The "what is it?" link discribes what the change does so the player can make an informed choice.

The player has the option to change their vote at any time during the week,accessible via the Menu,if they hit the wrong button or change their minds. At the end of the week,votes are tallied and we get a result. Now,I don't see what's wrong with this. It gives everyone the right to sound off on an issue. We get definate answers. And the CoH devs get instant marketing research. They find out what their audience wants and can make better decisions on how to do it. After all,if you know most of your audience isn't going to the test server or the forums,shouldn't you do something to find out what they want?

Of course,the post is immediantly flamed and soon deleted. Sick thing is,it went on for 4 pages and I stopped trying to respond around page 2. Funny thing is,the last time this happened,the forum it happened on,and the project connected to it,went under because the forum nazis wouldn't hear ANYTHING bad about the project or anyone attached to it. Even when it was obvious the project wasn't going to get off the ground. So here's the thing.

When you think about it,most MMORPGs lately seem to enter a point of "sucking". Where all the interesting and new ideas get thrown out to "streamline" the game,usually by removing as many options as possible,often against the wishes of their audience. CoH and SWG are good recent examples. So what do you guys think makes these games start sucking and steels the devs against undoing the damage?

HotShotX
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by HotShotX » Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:39 am

Pretty much taking away anything that keeps you from thinking your on a treadmill every time you play.

~HotShotX

Merlynn
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Merlynn » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:37 am

Yeah,but why does that happen? What "business plan" tells them that's the way to make money? I'd sooner play a stagnant good game than get nerfed to hell and get "new content" that's boring as hell.

At what point is the decision made to ignore your player base and "go after new players" with complete abandon? I mean,my poll suggestion offers a lot of information on their players and what they want and it's such a simple idea,it should already have been thought of and implimented already. But it's not. And,apparently,they don't care.

So to restate the question,why do these companies continue to fail horribly to make good games,even with all the evidence of past experience of other games doing the same thing and dying or relying solely on a diehard fanbase to support them?

HotShotX
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by HotShotX » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:09 pm

Heh, we should post this thread on the CoH forums. :)

~HotShotX

Merlynn
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Merlynn » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:18 pm

Wouldn't do any good. The same "yes men" who flamed my other post into deletion would just do the same thing here. They'd quote whatever bullshit the devs said,regardless of how it stands up to actual practice,and say I'm the one causing trouble. The fact that the player base shrank and continues to shrink is because of (hardcore gamers/casual gamers/tweakers/concept builds/whiners/noobs/whatever else) being unable to "cheat" and "exploit" the game,not because the game isn't fun anymore.

But the truth is,even if I was so rich that giving them 15 bucks a month would be like giving them a cup of piss,I still wouldn't play CoH. At most I'd probably just dick around with the character editor. Which is why noone's really pushing the emu guys since they got that up. It's the most fun CoH can offer without removing the nerfs anyway. :p No offense to the emu guys,but it's pretty far gone at this point.

In fact,that's pretty much all I've done for my free trial time is mostly make characters. Not much else to do. No incentive to level. No incentive to be social. No incentive to play the boring content. So what,excatly,is the point of playing CoH in it's current form? Anyone want to shed some light on this?

Naminator
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:47 pm

Post by Naminator » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:33 pm

I dont know man!
I never played CoH befor it got nerfed! so its very very very fun for me!! And couple of my friends also cant wait untill this emu comes out.
Your over reating and over analyzing everything. So what if they got nerfed? Atlest they balanced out the game!! In Lineage 2 the THs (dagger Users) are over powered in almost every server, so when you go in the server all you see is purely THs everywhere!
And theres no point of starting with anything eles because its pointless because youll get Pwned by THs anyway!

So what Im trying to say is, if they nerefed it to make it mnore balanced, then is good and they are wonderfull ppl for doing that!
And for those ppl who never played the game befor it got nerfed, the game is preety fun man, so try not only thinking of yourself here!

Merlynn
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Merlynn » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:46 am

I just typed up this long ass post and it got deleted because of a relog in thing. Now I have to do it again. I hope you appreciate this.

Basically,my question is this. How many "fair and balenced" games are also fun? By what standard does one judge fairness? Can one ever have a "fair" game without removing all that makes it different and special? Quake 3 is a fair game. It's also slow paced and boring. Many games feature an overpowered hero character taking on weaker enemies. Think about the single player games from the enemy's perspective. How long would you last? Is it really a fair fight? But the game remains fun.

So fair and balenced aren't what a game is about. If everything were fair,you wouldn't have ATs or different power sets. You'd just have one hero type with one set of powers and one subset of powers and that's it. Is it fair? Of course,everyone gets the exact same hero. Is it fun? Not by a long shot. The reason character creation remains fun is because of the modeler. You can make a variety of looks and styles and stuff. So why can't that variety and fun also extend to our character's powers and abilities? Why does the power of choice stop as soon as we're done making our characters look a certain way? I'm willing to accept my character might be weaker than others to make the concept build I want. Why can't other people accept that there are going to be more powerful characters than themselves?

Heroes come in all shapes and sizes. From normal,but driven,humans like Batman and Punisher to the ultra powerful like Superman and Hulk. Morality,power level,motivations,all of this changes from hero to hero. Punisher is no more powerful than the weapon he's holding while Superman can bend up a steel beam into funny balloon animal shapes with no real effort. And City of Heroes should reflect this. I should have the right to choose to be as weak or powerful as I want. I want to be able to play my concept characters and make PvP monsters. PvP is optional just for this reason. Yet they insist on making everything "fair and balenced".

I don't expect you to understand this. Maybe you're used to playing games where everything is in your favor. Maybe you've never played most first person shooters where everyone starts with the same stuff. But no matter how hard you try,you'll never have a fair fight against another person,no matter what the game does. There will always be players who are smarter,faster,and just plain meaner than you.

So I say,let the players decide how they want to play and you'll end up with more players. Let them choose and they'll have more reason to replay cause each character is different. If you narrow down your choices further and further,you end up with a more and more bland,one dimensional experience. And who really wants to replay that? And before you say "you just want an uber character",tell me how a Katana/Devices Scrapper is uber. And what's more,what does it matter if I'm uber? What's it to you? Do you not like the idea of being able to call in a more powerful character to help you if you can't finish a mission? Do you truely hate that a guy might ask you to join his team for a few seconds to bump up the mobs in his instance? Or are you afraid you'll be picked last for kickball again?

Frankly,people will play how they play. If they want to power level and skip all your content,let 'em. They're going to anyway. If someone wants to play a less powerful build,let 'em. More challenging in PvP. Who knows,maybe you'll find a new uber build. Maybe you'll actually have fun. Something to think about.

Merlynn
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Merlynn » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:48 am

Oh,and as for the TH's in Lineage 2,maybe you should try a different approach. Learn to play a TH,learn what they're going to do and how they do it. Then you come up with a counter strategy. Lord knows my knowlege of how to play Rogues helped my Hunter defend his flag from them.

Naminator
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:47 pm

Post by Naminator » Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:08 am

OK OK OK
Ill start off by aswearing the first thing.
Single-Player games are just what they sound like! SINGLE-PLAYER, meaning the favor is only for 1 player, an unbalanced and powerfull character that can only be taken down by many foes.
I know what you saying, you whant more vorioty then fairnes, but this is MMO, the game has to be balanced for all ppl. Your saying that you whant to chose how powerfull or how weak can you bee, but your forgetting one thing=Obviosly More than 90% of the ppl will whana be strogest. Tell me how fun would it be if all you see around you is the same type of ppl with the same type of powers? That would be fun would it?? Knowing that every one is the same as you, only look different.
Now we are on 2 different wavelinks here so I dont expect you to understand me.
What I whant from the game is to have an oportunity to start with Stalker and knowing I have a chance against a Brute, I dont whant a game where I have to start with a char that I dont like just to get some good PvP.
Im not afraid of ather ppl beeing overpowered, its just not right when you dont have chance to win a PvP if your not the overpowered class!
And its so obvios that if theres an overpowered class most of the ppl would start with it.
And on top of all, What would be the point of starting with a Villain if the Heroes are overpowered?? I mean Cmon this game has to challenging not just picking yourself to be the strongest and win every PvP!

EDIT:
[quote:9034857a1c]Oh,and as for the TH's in Lineage 2,maybe you should try a different approach. Learn to play a TH,learn what they're going to do and how they do it. Then you come up with a counter strategy. Lord knows my knowlege of how to play Rogues helped my Hunter defend his flag from them.[/quote:9034857a1c]
ohhh man Trust me there is no strategy!
They are way too overpowered! Theres a High lvling spot called LOA(Lair of Anthras) Where only ppl who are minimum lvl 62 with A-Grade equpment can posibly survive! But THs can go there at lvl 52 with B-grade equpment and have no freaking trouble killing the monsters there! Now tell me is that fair?? is that fair that other ppl need to be 10 lvl higher and have quipment that cost 3 times as much as B-Grade to lvl up there?? even with all that you gonna have trouble killing the mobs there while THs Slicing through them like Butter.

Merlynn
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Merlynn » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:37 am

Ok,here's how the nerf train starts. "Class A is too powerful,nerf them!" Class A gets nerfed. "Hey,now Class B,which was apparently just as overpowered all along,needs to be nerfed!" Class B gets nerfed. "Hey! Class C was even more powerful than those other 2! Why don't they get nerfed?" Class C is nerfed. "No,they're still to powerful! Nerf 'em again!" Class C is nerfed again. "Wait,I see it now,it's just this one power thing that makes them overpowered. We need to nerf that!" Class C is nerfed once more. "Still too powerful." Class C is nerfed 3 times. "Fuck it,lets just nerf Class D!" Class D is nerfed. And so on.

See,what's funny is,once you stop bitching about one class,another uber class pops up. Because people stopped using one "uber build",they started looking for others. So instead of bitching about one "uber class",why not just find the next uber class now and get a jump on everyone? Or let me put it this way.

During the post I made to the CoH forums,one guy asked me this. He wanted to know if "Scrappers soloing AVs,Tanks able to wipe whole maps by themselves,Blasters without damage caps,and Controllers who summoned armies" sounded like a good game to me. You know what? IT DOES! That sounds fucking awesome! I would love to see that! I would love to see who would win in a fight,an uber Scrapper or an uber Tank (of DOOOOOOOOOOM!). I would love to see a Blaster do full damage to an army of fire imps. Be like a CoH Guantlet. Oooo! That'd be a good multiplayer map. You have some controllers stand at various spots right around a corner and just spawn pets and see if you can reach and kill the controller before you're overwhelmed. Tell me how that doesn't rock! That would be awesome and everyone knows it!

Honestly,I'd rather have seen the implimentation of some new difficulty levels that offered up specialist "hero killers" who were custom made to rip apart various ATs. I'd have rather seen the nerfs never implimented at all. That way,I could have my little heroic guy who's probably not going into PvP and I could have my own monster bastard character who could rip into the higher ranks of PvP. So yeah. Better ways to go. And so what if 90% go that way? I don't have to to enjoy the PvE content and I can just make a super bastard if I want to play PvP on even terms. Or maybe I'd have some fun taking an underpowered character into PvP and seeing how well he held up.

And my point with the single player thing is the mindset. Basically,you're the hero,noone else. YOU have to save the world. Everything is stacked in YOUR favor. So you're used to "being the best". What you don't get is that I don't have to "be the best" to enjoy a game like you do. You're worried you'll have to be this one way or another to be uber. Apparently,you can only enjoy the game when you're the biggest,baddest guy on the block. If you stopped trying to be number one and just have some fun,you might find that an open ended game where you can do what you want is much more fun than trying to be grand high poohba of everything.

So stop worrying about your e-peener and just have fun being a guy in a stupid costume.

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